Return-Path: Received: from [192.168.100.201] (HELO mail.2rosenthals.com) by 2rosenthals.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.16) with ESMTP id 2580495 for virtualized_ecs_users@2rosenthals.com; Wed, 01 Jul 2009 07:07:19 -0400 Received: from static-71-171-102-26.clppva.fios.verizon.net ([71.171.102.26] helo=mail2.2rosenthals.com) by secmgr-ny.randr with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.43) id 1MLxee-0003Eq-SY for virtualized_ecs_users@2rosenthals.com; Wed, 01 Jul 2009 07:07:17 -0400 Received: from nschwmtas02p.mx.bigpond.com ([61.9.189.140]:36843) by mail2.2rosenthals.com with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MLxeZ-00021E-15 for virtualized_ecs_users@2rosenthals.com; Wed, 01 Jul 2009 07:07:03 -0400 Received: from nschwotgx02p.mx.bigpond.com ([124.176.126.199]) by nschwmtas02p.mx.bigpond.com with ESMTP id <20090701110659.XCDE1863.nschwmtas02p.mx.bigpond.com@nschwotgx02p.mx.bigpond.com>; Wed, 1 Jul 2009 11:06:59 +0000 Received: from [192.168.100.2] (really [124.176.126.199]) by nschwotgx02p.mx.bigpond.com with ESMTP id <20090701110658.KKWK11262.nschwotgx02p.mx.bigpond.com@[192.168.100.2]>; Wed, 1 Jul 2009 11:06:58 +0000 X-CTCH-RefID: str=0001.0A020201.4A4B4357.0148,ss=1,fgs=0 Message-ID: <4A4B4353.7060604@durrant.mine.nu> Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 21:06:59 +1000 From: Ed Durrant User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.21 (OS/2/20090411) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: eComStation@yahoogroups.com, virtualized_ecs_users@2rosenthals.com Subject: Re: [eCS] OT: VMWare ESX References: <4A3AB5C1.4090000@durrant.mine.nu> <5b70adc70906182353o4391c5f1ta21382340590146d@mail.gmail.com> <4A457C91.9050603@durrant.mine.nu> <4A47F98A.9020003@durrant.mine.nu> <4A47FEBA.5010405@durrant.mine.nu> <5b70adc70906282356o731f71can15c39ba76be00d7d@mail.gmail.com> <4A487422.7080009@durrant.mine.nu> <4A48AB8B.9010103@durrant.mine.nu> <4A492901.1030202@durrant.mine.nu> In-Reply-To: <4A492901.1030202@durrant.mine.nu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH PLAIN at nschwotgx02p.mx.bigpond.com from [124.176.126.199] using ID edward.durrant@bigpond.com at Wed, 1 Jul 2009 11:06:58 +0000 X-RPD-ScanID: Class unknown; VirusThreatLevel unknown, RefID str=0001.0A150204.4A4B4353.0054,ss=1,fgs=0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: _SUMMARY_ While talking about VMWare ESXi it is important to realise that this virtualisation engine runs "headerless". That means you don't see the operating systems except via remote control software such as VNC or RDP from another PC. So if you were thinking of running ESXi on your desktop PC with the hope to be able to switch between the eCS WPS, Windows 7 Desktop and Ubuntu you will be disappointed. VMWare ESXi (and ESX) are server environments - think of them as "virtual data centres in a box". If you want to be able to switch between different platforms and use the desktops on one PC, then you are better off looking at Virtualbox, Parallels, Virtual PC or VMWare workstation. Cheers/2 Ed. Ed Durrant wrote: > Hi Tim, > > This is perhaps getting too Off-Topic for this list but as eCS and > OS/2 are involved (as client OSes) maybe not. > > A couple of basic points about virtualisation on the intel/AMD platform. > > There are two approaches - Hypervisor and Hosted virtualisation. > Hypervisor is what both VMWare ESX and Microsoft Hyper-V (to an extent) > use. There is not Operating system where the virtualisation engine is > installed onto. The virtualisation code is that base OS and talks > directly to the hardware. This of course means that the virtualisation > hypervisor has to have the hardware drivers for the hardware you are > running on (hence the restricted list of hardware that is compatible). > Hypervisor is the commercial answer, it makes the maximum use of the > hardware and comes with full support (for a price).... > > The other option is a Hosted Virtualisation platform, where the > Virtualisation program is installed as a normal application on top of > the operating system. This has the advantage that it will run on any > hardware that the Operating system supports, it's disadvantage is that > it also suffers the problems that the base OS has, such as virus > infection, running out of resources and impact from other services > running in the OS. This approach is less efficient and tends to be used > only on workstations in a commercial environment however there are > server versions of hosted code which may be suitable for small > businesses that don't want the expense of a hypervisor based solution. > Some of these products come with commercial support, some are free. > > VMWare ESX has been for almost 10 years the de-facto standard and > license prices reflected this! However with the change to include some > virtualisation instructions directly in the processors, to many other > products now start to compete on performance if not necessarily support, > so VMWare are having to change their charging model and have released > the ESXi code for free for individual use without support, in the hope > that people will stay with VMWare and buy additional support when needed > in a commercial environment. > > Competition to VMWare comes from Citrix with the open source Xen > product and from Sun with the Open sourced Virtualbox product however > the biggest competition comes from Microsoft who are building in the > Hyper-V code into Windows Server 2008 as well as VirtualPC code as an > add-in integrated part to Windows 7 (mainly to allow Windows XP > applications to run if they are incompatible with Windows 7). Virtual PC > now as a free add-on to Windows XP and Vista has supported OS/2 Warp > for some time however eComStation had a problem during install until > changes in the last couple of RC versions where an option has been added > to allow its installation into a virtualised environment. > > So as you can see, there are options, however there are also drawbacks. > Normally USB connected devices cannot be seen by the client OS running > under virtualisation, Only basic networking and graphical cards are > emulated in the virtualised session, so this is not an option for high > level video editing for example, but for running a home or company > server (or several servers on one system) it is a viable option if you > chose the correct program. > > As for embedded, out of the box options, IBM (and others) already sell > rack mount servers or server blades with ESXi V3 installed on an SSD > within the system, when they upgrade to ESXi v4 and if indeed it > supports eComStation and OS/2 (which is what we are currently trying to > confirm), then these could be a good option for you. > > Cheers/2 > > Ed. > > Tim Stephen wrote: > >> Ed, >> >> Please put in a plea for me at Warpstock for people to consider >> preloading such systems. The biggest headache of my life is futzing >> with hardware issues and ecs (and we aren't getting along at all well >> lately as I have this collection of thinkcentres that have now trashed >> six harddrives in the last 18 months). I really want to be able to >> buy that expertise. And, wow, if it was possible to get a fast rack >> mount server box that ran multiple instances of os/2 (and other os's) >> without any downside (full internet connectivity for each instance, >> ability to selectively kill and reboot any particular instance >> remotely, normal access to the boot process so that you can do things >> like restore archived desktops, boot to command prompt and swap dlls) >> I would see this as the golden path to the future. Imagine putting >> squid on one of the instances. I could expand much more gracefully >> and confidently with this kind of set up than my current collection of >> used 2006-era IBM rack mount servers. >> >> I've got a mac with os/2 running under parrallels and used to have win >> 2000 running on an ecs host using virtual pc. These are not good >> enough. Too tempremental. It needs to be exactly like running >> multiple real systems independently but sharing i/o devices. If >> VMWare is really up to this task, I pray someone with expertise steps >> up and starts preconfiguring and supporting these systems for those of >> us running internet businesses on os/2. (Hell, if all that comes of >> this is that VMWare is supplying a layer that in effect makes it >> possible to certify certain hardware as definitely supporting os/2 >> (VMWare compliant, therefore os/2 compliant), that alone is a gift at >> this point even if you only ran one copy of os/2 on the box.) >> >> Tim >> >> On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 7:54 AM, Ed Durrant wrote: >> >> >>> Tim Stephen wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Just waking up to this thread ... Does this product mean that one >>>> could purchase and configure a modern rack-mount server-class box >>>> guaranteed to be able to run a whole bunch of ecs copies >>>> simultaneously? I would be very interested in this, and in a service >>>> perhaps a reseller could provide to sell such a server with the ecs >>>> instances installed and minimally configured. One source of anxiety >>>> in my life is what happens in the future as it becomes increasingly >>>> difficult to locate os/2-compatible hardware. We run 3 os/2 boxes as >>>> internet servers in a server farm and I have purchased a number of >>>> used compatible replacement boxes as a hedge against the time our >>>> systems-in-use begin to fail.. It is hard enough to figure out safe >>>> choices in hardware for single user home systems let alone rack-mount >>>> server-class systems. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Yes, that is exactly the idea. Unfortunately, ESX only runs on a limited >>> number of systems (mainly proper server boxes), so no one on this list >>> has said they have been able to install this as yet and test that eCS >>> will run as a client OS. >>> >>> The other possibility (already exists with ESXi v 3 is to buy a server >>> with the VMWare code already "embedded" in the system. You could then >>> buy an "appliance image", load that you would be operational with either >>> a basic or a fully configured system within a matter of minutes. >>> >>> Of course the system could run other OSes at the same time. >>> >>> VMWare ESXi V4 is just the latest of many virtualisation products that >>> have to a greater and lesser extent supported OS/2 and/or eCS as client >>> and/or host OS. I plan to cover this in greater detail in a >>> presentation at this years Warpstock Europe. >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> Cheers/2 >>> >>> Ed >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > > -- Cheers/2 Ed Checkout my new (WIP) eComStation Australia Podcast - search for eComStation at iTunes or Podcastblaster.com or add the RSS feed http://feeds2.feedburner.com/eComStationAustralia to Thunderbird. Don't miss the tenth Warpstock Europe at Stralsund 12-15 November 2009 check out - http://www.warpstock.eu for details.